基督家庭 今日: 0 | 主題: 9939

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61^#

發表於 07-2-21 22:15 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

睡覺：

請你自己翻開中文字典去查 Protestant 的意思吧！
不是我們自創的名字與解釋呢！

有基督徒網站是 www.chineseprotestantchurch.org
which means it is not us to name them Protestant. And, the definition is merely "any Christian denomination which is not Roman Catholic or Orthodox Christian."

「多元社區，和諧並存；你我出手，聾健共融」

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62^#

發表於 07-2-21 22:38 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

麟媽﹕

我對你一點都沒有惡意的，對天主教徒也是。其實一直以來，我也很少進來基督家庭，只是間唔中入來一下。

當看到一些有關兩宗教的資料時，我確實很有興趣了解。以前我真的很少接觸天主教，以前有個朋友是天主教徒，初相識時，他知道我是基督徒便十分反感，我那時還年青，什麼都不懂，不明白為何他要排斥我的信仰。所以，我嘗試想知道天主教是什麼來著，但也只是初步認知，並沒有鑽研下去，深入探討。後來才偶然的多看有關的資料。
如果有更多時間，我真的很有興趣去了解兩者的淵源和歷史背景，多搜集有關的資料，包括由天主教而來的資料及基督教而來的，還有是歷史資料而來的。

我不知道你們和這兒部分的信徒有什麼過節，我一開始進入"那個"topic時，看到的是有關天主教及基督教不能合一的資料，我很有興趣去了解，也渴望天主教徒在那兒能溫婉的給我一些他們對有關言論的解釋。
看那些資料，沒錯，都是指出天主教不合理的論點，但未見他們是針對個人而言；只是，卻看到你們一進來便罵人，不是護教，而且冷言冷語又諷刺，一唱一和的，好像小學生女生和別派女生鬥嘴一樣的口吻，讓我大吃一驚。(當然，我後來才知道你們或許以前已有過不快的經驗，才有如此大的反應吧？)

當然，我也看到部分基督徒有些言詞又的確頗挑釁，即使維護真理也不必以此用詞，特別在這個場合。

其實，現在情況，或許你們就像其它對基督教反感的宗教或無宗教人士一樣，別人說自己是魔鬼，是罪人，是沒得救，是迷信，他們一樣跟你們一樣對此等言論十分反感。因此，我覺得也許這兒真的並不適合作此探討吧？

我所說的人生攻擊，互相攻擊，係指兩邊人而言。並不單指天主教徒而言。

麟媽，你當我不是基督徒，如果，撇除他們部分的尖酸言詞，或可能真有的故意挑釁態度(這個我不敢妄斷)，以及你認為部分人個人的操守而言，單就他們部分資料所言，如果，天主教在某個歷史時期，真的錯走了神的路，違背了神的真理，你認為如何呢？？請不要生氣，我是指係如果 ....

謝謝你，其實，我也明白你是個明白事理的人.....

唉，在這處已變得亂七八糟的topic中，我真係無眼睇....肯定的不是一個人的責任﹗

麟媽媽寫道:
睡覺,

我沒有人生攻擊，
人家有沒有做過，
自己心知肚明！
我只講出曾經發生過既事，
沒有作大，亦沒有抹黑，
可以問問佢本人有無咁做過？
點解有人可以講一套做一套，
你就話我論斷人？
人地話我地天主教徒沒得救，
就唔算論斷別人？

我時常犯錯，之後我又後知後覺，
我成日祈禱，希望不會再犯.....
所以我真係好少指責人地有咩行差踏錯，
自己又唔係無錯過，識我既朋友都好了解我，
我係咩人，你地網友唔知好正常。
可能今次我又錯了，EQ 低，
好鬼嬲覺得有人點解咁樣，
又指住我地....唉....求主指引，
免我又再次受不住，出口又再..... :cry:

[quote]
睡覺寫道:

但繼而針對人生攻擊，互相挖苦，才是真正的互相攻擊。

[/quote]

誰會直率地說出所認識的真實？有所認識的少數人，愚蠢地不隱蔽自己充實的心，向愚民們說明他們的感情和見識，他們總是被人磔死或燒死。歌德 <<浮士德>>入來做下test，不同的人對事情有不同的看法和感受﹗

私人傳訊

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63^#

發表於 07-2-21 22:40 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

jk67jk..
你好像依然看不明白我的意思，你我根本上所言之意的方向都不同，所以，我亦無謂在跟你糾纏在這事上，算ba la﹗

jk67jk 寫道:
睡覺：

請你自己翻開字典去查 Protestant 的意思吧！
不是我們自創的名字與解釋呢！

The definition is merely "any Christian denomination which is not Roman Catholic or Orthodox Christian."

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solo

民房

積分: 15

64^#

發表於 07-2-21 22:45 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

我覺得在基督教圈內(包括更正教、天主教、東正教)有宗派之分並不是問題，宗派主義才是問題。

福音派的弟兄姊妹理性的、平和的很多。事實上，福音派也與天主教展開了十分友善的對話，都以弟兄相稱，請參考Evangelicals and Catholics Together 的相關文獻：
http://www.leaderu.com/ect/ectmenu.html

另外，有一本書是十分值得推薦給大家的，是《耶穌的母親瑪利亞》(Mary: A Catholic-Evangelical Debate)，作者是Dwight Longenecker 及David Gustafson。J.I. Packer (更正教) 及 Richard John Neuhaus (天主教)共同推薦。看後大家會知道什麼是在友好善意又不失各自立場的理性討論。

[quote]
littlefaith 寫道:
solo所引聖經正好反映很多在這討論區中基要派、福音派的心理，話人有罪就容易，仲好過癮添。

我認識不少基督教徒(這樣稱呼會舒服一點吧？)，大多是溫和的，和一些基要派、福音派很大分別。後者根本從初信就不斷受到吳教主等偏激言論的洗禮，根本對天主教信仰一知半解，以為將天主教教理列出來逐一批判就叫做了解天主教，其實這些人如果找一些對信仰認知較深入的天主教徒談談，就會更明白天主教信仰核心，根本同基督教無異。

我反而想請教「睡覺」一下，基督教所講「唯獨聖經」，在聖經哪一章哪一節有講過？天主的啟示是否只限聖經？[/quote

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65^#

發表於 07-2-21 22:48 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

睡覺, 其實你也不明白那些人所指的為什麼使人惱怒！

這是整個基督宗教的發展史！不可能在這裡言明得太仔細。與其在甲處 copy 在這裡 paste, 真的想知多一點的, 應去翻查由不同教會出版的教會史書。

基督教有數大反天教會, 在網上供應大量反天的資料給教徒去攻擊天主教。可是, 天主教 — 更甚是華人天主教教區沒有大量的這些護教文章可供copy & paste。我們要解釋, 是需要從書本上自己打字上載的....

「多元社區，和諧並存；你我出手，聾健共融」

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積分: 10867

66^#

發表於 07-2-21 22:57 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

cont...d

一開口罵人..... 想講的是, 那些文章已由同一人, 或兩、三人不斷的在「親子王國」不斷張貼。我們不是一開口罵人, 兩三年前, 我們已有人禮貌的答覆過。

假若你真的不是反天派, 而是真心中立去看, 你是看漏了一些年前的對話 ... 對著同一伙人同一篇文章....

我們有些當初真心對話的, 也沒有想過隔一些時間問題又會重來; 以前親手準備的回應也沒有備存。

我也沒有回應你/他們一段時間了, 因為我了解這是沒完沒了的。查看旺角平x福音堂的宗旨(應是屬靈路線), 內是標明「反天」的... (實在無言 :-| )

「多元社區，和諧並存；你我出手，聾健共融」

私人傳訊

積分: 3761

67^#

發表於 07-2-21 22:57 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

jk67jk,

但單就某幾個差異問題而言，我就覺得有點不太妥當了，因為真的係頗明顯的"問題"，怎樣說也好像說不通。

我遲d去問下我的學長好了，他以前係天主教徒，好像自小已受洗，而加返聖公會(佢就係以前護他的教，排斥我個信仰ge人喇﹗)，等我有機會再問個明白好了。至少，他可以以他的角度(曾接觸過兩邊信仰)給我一些分享。

jk67jk 寫道:

睡覺, 其實你也不明白那些人所指的為什麼使人惱怒！

這是整個基督宗教的發展史！不可能在這裡言明得太仔細。與其在甲處 copy 在這裡 paste, 真的想知多一點的, 應去翻查由不同教會出版的教會史書。

基督教有數大反天教會, 在網上供應大量反天的資料給教徒去攻擊天主教。可是, 天主教 — 更甚是華人天主教教區沒有大量的這些護教文章可供copy & paste。我們要解釋, 是需要從書本上自己打字上載的....

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積分: 3761

68^#

發表於 07-2-21 23:05 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

jk

我不知道什麼是反天派，我只知道我是親主耶穌基督的，我只知道，聖經都是神所默示的，於教訓、督責，使人歸正，教導人學義，都是有益的。主耶穌基督就是道路、真理、生命﹗任何違反聖經真理的，我都不會站在那條道路上。有中間的嗎？神及與神違背的，不是只有兩個選擇嗎？

:mrgreen:

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69^#

發表於 07-2-21 23:10 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

睡覺,

對於某位天主教徒朋友一知道你是基督教徒便反感, 我實在不知他對你的反感程度。

我也曾對基督徒很反感, 因為我年輕時遇過不少基督徒要來拯救我, 說「唯獨受浸於基督教才能得救」；又不斷質問我很多問題 —— 是「質問」, 群起兩三人的圍著我.... 這些經驗不難令人會抗拒碰上基督教徒的。因此, 人的過往遭遇可能會影響他的待人處事行為的。

其實, 兩教能友好當然是好事, 但是, 我們(天主教徒)期望的, 可能只是不被惡意攻擊。

ps. 反天 = 反天主教 (Anti-Catholic)

「多元社區，和諧並存；你我出手，聾健共融」

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積分: 7153

70^#

發表於 07-2-21 23:13 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

提示: 作者被禁止或刪除內容自動屏蔽

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71^#

發表於 07-2-21 23:23 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

睡覺：

聖經是真理, 但認識這真理、演譯這真理的郤是人。不是真理有中間路線, 而是究竟誰人才是真真正正明白神的真理。

神的心不是我們的心, 我們是否真的很肯定我們對神的心明暸得完全無誤？是否聖經的一字一句就必是我們應跟隨的真理。一個例子 (現沒空去查經文):
我記得有一段經文大意是講, 門徒去傳福音, 如羊入狼群中;
另一段是說, 如那裡的人不接受門徒帶來的平安, 便應揮去腳上的塵土...
這兩段經文都可以說明傳教士傳教的境況。有傳教士因前文寧死也留在不接受基督宗教的地區, 最後殉教; 也有傳教士因後文認為既然他們不接受,便應離去,無謂犧牲。
你說, 兩者是否有conflict？

聖經是於教訓、督責，使人歸正，教導人學義，都是有益的。但以聖經斷章取義去建構必然的真理, 便不是每一項每一條都可以的。

「多元社區，和諧並存；你我出手，聾健共融」

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發表於 07-2-21 23:25 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

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73^#

發表於 07-2-21 23:28 |只看該作者

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私人傳訊

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74^#

發表於 07-2-21 23:33 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

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發表於 07-2-21 23:39 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

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kittycub

複式洋房

積分: 103

76^#

發表於 07-2-21 23:42 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

大話精始終係大話精﹐我從來都認為同性戀係罪﹐何來支持同性戀呢﹖
至於不信聖經無誤﹐係人都知道我反對既係按字面解釋聖經､把創世記的記載等同科學事實､甚至說舊約使用 3 作為圓週率就是準確無誤等等﹐都是錯誤的聖經觀念。聖經的可靠可信性只在它啟示人類為何存在､將來去哪裡､為何有苦難､如何達到美善､拯救才是它價值﹐也是它唯一可以說是“不錯誤” (infallible) 的地方。使用 inerrant (無誤) 形容聖經﹐是錯誤把聖經裡面一切都當成毫無錯誤 (包括科學､歷史､天文､地理)﹐agape 所講的聖經無誤其實才是把聖經置于給世人攻擊的錯誤觀念。
而講實際數據﹐新教內性侵犯者的比率高於天主教。

如果計算侵犯兒童的﹐新教有2% 到 3 %﹐天主教呢0.2 到 1.7 %。
由於天主教神父限制了與異性接觸﹐新教裡面教牧沒有限制﹐新教裡面就有更多是男性教牧侵犯女性教徒的事件。

The data on the Protestant clergy tend to focus on sexual abuse in general, not on sexual abuse of children. Thus, strict comparisons cannot always be made. But there are some comparative data available on the subject of child sexual molestation, and what has been reported is quite revealing.

In a 1984 survey, 38.6 percent of ministers reported sexual contact with a church member, and 76 percent knew of another minister who had had sexual intercourse with a parishioner.[xiii] In the same year, a Fuller Seminary survey of 1,200 ministers found that 20 percent of theologically “conservative” pastors admitted to some sexual contact outside of marriage with a church member. The figure jumped to over 40 percent for “moderates”; 50 percent of “liberal” pastors confessed to similar behavior.[xiv]

In 1990, in a study by the Park Ridge Center for the Study of Health, Faith and Ethics in Chicago, it was learned that 10 percent of ministers said they had had an affair with a parishioner and about 25 percent admitted some sexual contact with a parishioner.[xv] Two years later, a survey by Leadership magazine found that 37 percent of ministers confessed to having been involved in “inappropriate sexual behavior” with a parishioner.[xvi]

In a 1993 survey by the Journal of Pastoral Care, 14 percent of Southern Baptist ministers said they had engaged in “inappropriate sexual behavior,” and 70 percent said they knew a minister who had had such contact with a parishioner.[xvii] Joe E. Trull is co-author of the 1993 book, Ministerial Ethics, and he found that “from 30 to 35 percent of ministers of all denominations admit to having sexual relationships—from inappropriate touching to sexual intercourse—outside of marriage.”[xviii]

According to a 2000 report to the Baptist General Convention in Texas, “The incidence of sexual abuse by clergy has reached ‘horrific proportions.’” It noted that in studies done in the 1980s, 12 percent of ministers had “engaged in sexual intercourse with members” and nearly 40 percent had “acknowledged sexually inappropriate behavior.” The report concluded that “The disturbing aspect of all research is that the rate of incidence for clergy exceeds the client-professional rate for physicians and psychologists.”[xix] Regarding pornography and sexual addiction, a national survey disclosed that about 20 percent of all ministers are involved in the behavior.[xx]

In the spring of 2002, when the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church was receiving unprecedented attention, the Christian Science Monitor reported on the results of national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources. The conclusion: “Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.”[xxi]

Finally, in the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests, it was determined that between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and 3 percent.[xxii]

你一定說我資料來自天主教網頁﹐可是這裡談論的是實際數據﹐訴諸對方立場處境的辯駁是無改這些數據的事實。

(至於說我和反基督教人士一起製作反基督教網頁﹐我看你實在需要提出實質證據﹐我提供內容都是介紹基督教﹐而不是反基督教的﹐最多是反對好像你這種基要派而已)

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77^#

發表於 07-2-21 23:48 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

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littlefaith

積分: 1555

78^#

發表於 07-2-21 23:48 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

agape,

唔該你唔好再响度挑釁好唔好？
請返回你自己個天國好嗎？
你三日唔埋、兩日洗版，已經令好多討論區基督徒受苦。

littlefaith

agape 寫道:
我並沒抹黑天主教，我只是如實的客觀轉貼幾篇報導。這篇文章也是集合好幾件天主教的性醜聞，但很明顯不同的，是這並不是個別事件，差不多每一篇報導都有非常龐大的數字，而且是和梵蒂岡包容罪惡有關。

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kittycub

複式洋房

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發表於 07-2-21 23:49 |只看該作者

Re: 對agape等專門攻擊天主教(及天主教徒)嘅新教徒嘅哀求：請停止推文，請停止

邏輯上﹐agape 提出多少有關天主教神父涉及性侵犯的事例﹐也不可以直接證明是因為天主教信仰錯誤的結果。

如果比較實際數據和現實﹐新教的情況其實比天主教糟糕﹐而因為新教分散成為多個派別﹐派裡面也分開獨立堂會﹐一個教牧如果在一個堂會侵犯會友﹐堂會害怕事件揭露影響教會﹐一定會息事寧人﹐送走那教牧了事﹐更加不會剝奪那教牧已經得到的按立﹐於是侵犯者可以玩過一個教會再去另外一個。

這裡是另外的數據研究﹐反映出新教同樣有這樣的問題﹐而且發生的都有不少是所謂信仰純正的教會﹕
It is commonly assumed that clergy sexual abuse is an exclusively Catholic problem that does not happen in other churches, and it is not true:

In a 1983 doctoral thesis by Richard Blackmon, 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner. Clergy Sexual Abuse

beliefnet.com/... Denominations Sexual Abuse: 17 percent of laywomen said that their own pastor had harassed them.... 10% of Protestant pastors had been sexually active with an adult parishioner... only 6.1 percent of Southern Baptist pastors admitted to having sexual contact with a parishioner.

Although the actual extent of the problem is unknown, the significance of clergy sexual abuse is acknowledged by the leaders of most Christian churches, Protestant, Orthodox... Buddhism, Judaism...
Sexual Exploitation by Clergy Clergy Jewish Sexual Abuse See other studies in the Web

While pedophilia, the sexual molestation of children, captures headlines in most abuse cases, in actuality over 90% of all clerical sexual abuse and misconduct cases are perpetrated against women. Although actual figures are difficult to gather because of the churches' reluctance to discuss such sensitive matters.
Sexual abuse and the Orthodox Clergy United Methodist Interpreter

Clerical misconduct and sexual abuse takes many forms, from verbal harassment, to explicit sexual talk; from improper touching to unwanted advances; from outright sexual demands to supposed "love-affairs." There can be no consensual involvement between cleric and laywoman or children because of the power imbalance--and, clerical sexual involvement is an abuse of power and authority (in the name of God). Several states have included laws on their books making any form of clerical sexual involvement with parishioners a felony tantamount to rape and incest.

When Trust Is Betrayed
Understanding Sexual Abuse by Clergy
by James Poling
This article has been reproduced from Interpreter Online, the electronic companion to The United Methodist Interpreter magazine. Reprinted with permission from Interpreter Copyright ?January 1997. All rights reserved.

United Methodist Interpreter Editor's Note: The United Methodist General Conference has held that sexual misconduct by clergy is a chargeable offense, and annual conferences have developed rigorous guidelines to govern clergy behavior. Writer James Poling offers basic information on sexual abuse by clergy in hopes that, as our church's awareness increases, so will our ministries to those harmed in the wake of this violation of trust.

As Christians called to care for other human beings as brothers and sisters, we need to commit ourselves to education and understanding about the issues surrounding sexual abuse by clergy.

The following are commonly raised questions and my attempts at common-sense answers.

What is sexual abuse by clergy?
Sexual abuse by clergy occurs whenever an ordained minister engages in sexual behavior with someone for whom he or she has spiritual responsibility. One cannot be a pastor or counselor and a sexual partner to the same person.

How widespread is it?
Some studies indicate that 10 to 20 percent of all clergy have had sexual involvements with parishioners. Still more admit engaging in inappropriate sexualized emotional relationships that stopped short of physical expression. There are some indications that sexual abuse by clergy is increasing, perhaps because of sexual freedom gained from recent societal changes.

If both adults consent, why is it wrong?
When a person comes to a pastor for guidance, it is the pastor's role to point that person to the God of Jesus Christ and the healing resources of the body of Christ, the church, not to add to the confusion and brokenness.

Why don't we hear more about incidents of abuse by clergy?
Unless they are ready to change their behavior, abusers gain no benefits from admitting to their behavior. They often deny their role when confronted or accused. Victims, too, may be afraid or ashamed, so they keep the abuse a secret.

What can I, or my congregation, do?
Most of us are uncomfortable with this issue. It is sometimes hard to know what to believe because we are used to believing pastors rather than parishioners, men more than women, adults more than children, clergy more than laypersons. We must expose false myths about why it happens such as "ministers are only human" or "women ask for it."
If your pastor is accused or suspected of sexual abuse, empower a panel of trusted and knowledgeable people to investigate in strictest confidence and act quickly.

What is being done by bishops and other churchwide leaders to address abuse?
Many annual conferences have in place procedures which empower responsible committees to investigate charges, make recommendations, and remove offenders from positions of trust and responsibility.
But beyond this, we must ask ourselves what about our system has led some ordained ministers to believe that sexual involvement with parishioners is ever appropriate? Why has the church been so silent for many years, and why are we slow to change? Has our discrimination against women sent the message that women and children are second-class citizens in the church and available for exploitation?
These are difficult questions for us but ones we must face if we are to move from mere policies and procedures to a true sense of the sacred worth of all children of God, and the call of ministers to be caring guides, not exploiters of their flocks.
For more information, contact the General Commission on the Status and Role of Women, 1200 Davis St., Evanston, IL 60201; (847) 869-7330.

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Creating Safe Space

Pamela Cooper-White, former director of the Center for Women and Religion at Berkeley, Calif., estimates the vast majority of victims, more than 95 percent, are women. She recommends the following steps for women who feel they have been sexually abused by their pastor:

Talk with another member of the congregation, preferably a woman, about the problem.
Seek advice from advocacy groups such as the Commission on the Status and Role of Women in your district, conference or the churchwide office (address below).
Get counseling for yourself and, if necessary, for your family. Avoid contact with the pastor in question until the matter is resolved.

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Advice for Clergy

Jim Sparks, professor in health and human issues at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, trains pastors about social, personal and sexual ethics. He offers the following advice for male pastors:

Pay attention to where and how you meet people for counseling sessions, particularly women and youth. Structure meetings so you're not completely alone with the person to be counseled.
Know your limitations as counselor. Suggest medical or professional counseling and treatment for persons "in extreme stress or need."
Clergypersons uncertain about their own sense of worth may feel drawn to a troubled parishioner who sees the pastor as a hero. "Married pastors should make their marriages top priority, and go to their spouses when they're feeling bad," Sparks says. Celibate clerics should seek support of friends and colleagues. As a professional, you shouldn't look to your parishioners to meet your emotional needs," he adds.
Copyright ?1997 Interpreter, The United Methodist Church. All rights reserved.

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