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洋房

積分: 40


1#
發表於 10-3-31 11:20 |只看該作者
* * *

Lily, Yale和Diane相信皆真有其人,據稱任職於銀行(瑞信與渣打)。他們之間的故事,因為Lily一封公開的電郵而廣為人知(網上稱之為「瑞信女鬥小三」)。

情節其實簡單不過:Lily和丈夫十三年的婚姻失敗,她悲痛欲絕,又心有不甘。在一封向朋友宣佈其離婚消息的電郵裡,她公開質問前夫的情人Diane,知否她有多痛苦。

她說,Diane,過去幾年來,你瞭解我家裡的一切:孩子哪時候有球賽,什麼時候上游泳課,甚至他們的小名。去年聖誔,我和孩子到美國過聖誔,你和Yale牽手共遊泰國...知否這個假期帶給你的快樂,與帶給我們的痛苦相若?

她問,Diane,我想不透,躺在別人丈夫、別人父親臂彎的感覺如何?你可知道你在破壞一個家庭?你可知道我們有多痛苦?

她說因為自己與丈夫的離異,孩子的心靈已大受打擊,她也如萬箭穿心,肝腸寸斷。但為了孩子們,她只得挺下去。

看完第一封信時,很難不同情Lily。她並不矯情,而字裡行間一字一淚。
然而Yale和Diane的回應,卻打破出軌男人與第三者必屬壞人的刻板形像,而且擢破這封信裡、一個大部份人皆視而不見的邏輯謬誤。


洋房

積分: 40


2#
發表於 10-3-31 11:21 |只看該作者
Yale的回應非常簡單直接。他說:

Lily,請不要把我們之間的事公開。我們的婚姻八年前已破裂、離婚也談了五年。
Diane什麼都沒有做錯。我會站在她身邊,並衷心希望她不久後將下嫁於我。

他告訴Lily,朋友們也支持他們離異的決定,何苦將他和Diane描繪成邪惡的人?


洋房

積分: 40


3#
發表於 10-3-31 11:21 |只看該作者
三封信中,最令我意外的是Diane的回應──當情人的前妻以受害者姿態出現、於眾親友面前數落她時,Diane並無畏縮與迴避,她的回信落落大方:

她說,我明白你的感受,但我更明白,物必自腐而後蟲生(原文為:a marriage can only break apart from the inside)。遠在我和Yale相遇之前,你們之間已經出了問題,不管有沒有我,這段婚姻的結果也一樣。讓我成為你們婚姻失敗的代罪羔羊,說我破壞了你們的家庭,太不成熟了。

你說孩子們因此承受了多大的傷害,也讓我不安。我不知道你如何告訴孩子這一切,但我認為,一個母親的首要責任是保護孩子免受心靈創傷,而非以他們作為與伴侶討價還價的籌碼,或借此爭取公眾同情。 讓他們憎恨自己的父親,對孩子們並無好處。

你問我躺在Yale的臂彎感覺如何,我更想問你,為什麼你想繼續和一個不再關心你的人拖拖拉拉?如果世上有比睡在其他女人丈夫身邊更糟的事,那就是睡在一個討厭你、難以忍受你、一有機會就想離開你的人身邊。

她向Lily說,你可以失去丈夫,失去工作,但你不必失去自己。還有,請勿讓自己的負面情緒影響孩子們,他們是無辜的。你應愛護他們遠多於自己。

* * *


洋房

積分: 40


4#
發表於 10-3-31 11:21 |只看該作者
這幾封信之所以在內地廣傳,除了因為三人的英語皆流暢自然而成為「學習對像」外(值得一讚的是三封電郵的用字均文明理智,沒有呼天搶地慷慨激昂──用英語之故?),更因為它所訴說的故事,是如此的普遍,不少人都有第一身、或接近第一身的經驗。

關於Lily, Yale和Diane的故事,我只想說幾點:

1.Lily借電郵向朋友公開自己的不幸,即使沒有搏取同情的目的,也達到爭取同情的效果。她承受的痛苦可以理解,然而她的做法似乎不夠成熟──否則我們今天不能在此吱吱喳喳地逍遺她的不幸(罪過、罪過!)。不過成熟與否並非關鍵,她的控訴,有一個思考上的盲點。

Lily有恃無恐地公開自己婚姻的失敗,並在眾目睽睽下對Diane作出種種質問,是什麼原因?是因為她相信大多數人會認為她對、同情她;她相信大多數人會認同她,因為她是最受傷的一個,而套用中國人慣用的邏輯,受害人通常是較正確的,她可輕易對號入座。

值得留意的是,她把婚姻的痛苦和不幸,直接和前夫的情人掛鈎,而質問的對像,不是前夫,是這位情人──不管有意或無意,她明白在失去丈夫的妻子和第三者之間,前者佔領了較高的道德優勢。她利用了這絕對優勢。

然而,她承受了多大的痛苦,就等於第三者有多罪大惡極嗎?兩個人之間出現裂痕,首先應作深刻反省的,是雙方,不是別人。在道德上,Lily毋庸置疑最令人同情;但在邏輯上,她把痛苦歸因於別人,好像不大站得住腳。


洋房

積分: 40


5#
發表於 10-3-31 11:22 |只看該作者
2.我不否認Diane的回應使我刮目相看。
一段婚姻破裂、一個家庭分崩離析,在中國人的社會裡,最受千夫所指的,必然是作為第三者的女性,在大多數情況下,她一點自辯的機會都沒有。可是Diane為許多與她處境類似的女性說了一句公道話──在我沒有出現之前,你們的婚姻已經觸礁了,請不要把一切罪名歸咎於我。
她是如此坦率,並沒有使自己落入第三者必然要為別人婚姻負責而內咎的套牢裡。

Yale顯然沒有向Diane隱瞞自己和妻子出現裂痕的事,所以Diane一直都知道自己的角色如何。我相信在可以選擇的情況下,沒有一個女人願意承受第三者的污名、沒有一個女人存心使另一個人承受那麼大的痛苦。可憐她陷入了複雜的三角關係中,身不由己。在情人與妻子離婚談判期間,她承受的壓力不會比其餘二人少。

看熱鬧的人往往把三個人的事都統統推在一個女人身上,因為這是最不動腦筋的想法。但這是最正確的嗎?在邏輯上,她不一定需要為別人失敗的婚姻負全責,可惜在道德上,她揹負著最難洗脫的污名。


洋房

積分: 40


6#
發表於 10-3-31 11:24 |只看該作者
3.相信Diane能如此不卑不亢地在Lily的朋友面前作出回應,關鍵之一是她愛的男人站在她那邊。他在不足一小時裡回覆了前妻的電郵,並說:

Diane had done nothing wrong for her part! I am firmly standing by and behind Diane. I will certainly hope she will marry me one day soon!

當 Yale可以以沉默回應前妻時,他選擇為了情人而站出來(大家得知道,在二女角力的情況下,那個身為始作俑者的男人,往往最被忽略而能倖免於各種責難)。憑這點,我覺得他還像個男人。

他也許有過一段不幸的婚姻、傷害過一個曾經愛過的女人,但至少,在朋友面前,他並無置第二個他愛的女人於不顧。而且,他竟然仍相信婚姻。

如果他有做錯,最錯的,不是出軌──已不愛妻子了,出軌是遲早的事──而是在沒有處理好和前妻的藕斷絲連前,把另一個女人牽扯進去,讓多一個人承受不必要的痛苦和壓力。不過,作為惰性動物的男人,在沒有外力的影響下,會否自發將有問題的婚姻一刀兩斷,真難說。

4.這三個人的愛情故事,讓我想起錢鍾書在《圍城》裡的一句話:婚姻就像一座圍城,裡面的人拚命想逃出來,外面的人卻總想鑽進去。

與其判斷誰對誰錯,我比較傾向想這是一件不幸的事,誰都付出了高昂代價:

對Lily來說,丈夫既然已不愛自己了,放手並非壞事。最差的情況是不情不願地接受一切,並以怨恨面對未來。

Diane並非勝利者。她好像得到了那個男人,但對方的孩子永遠不會原諒她,她能好過嗎?Lily可以把她的痛苦公諸於世,理直氣壯地爭取支持,但Diane的苦,卻只能自己默然承受。

Yale又如何?只要前妻一天不原諒他,他一天有愧於她。一段婚姻終結、失去寶貴家庭,他也是受害人,可惜大家只會記得他是個不忠的人。

延伸閱讀:
虐人又自虐的婚姻 .林沛理

一夫一妻制的婚姻在合法化(legitimize)和常態化(normalize)男女交媾的同時,也一併將嫉妒和佔有慾人類這兩大劣根性和惡癖,提升為一種值得表揚的善行和美德;並美其名地稱之為對伴侶的忠貞(fidelity)。西諺有云:「要維繫一段婚姻,關鍵在於不要做任何伴侶無法饒恕的事情」(Marriages depend on avoiding the unforgivable),這當然是指通姦了。誠然,一個丈夫不管怎樣克盡厥職,一旦被妻子發現「不忠」,他的優良「業績」馬上就會一筆勾銷,從此被定性為「衰男人」。至於一個紅杏出牆的女人,所承受的千夫所指和污名化(stigmatization),比起「行差踏錯」的男人更只有過之而無不及。

* * *
轉自http://wongleona.blogspot.com/2010/03/lily-yalediane.html

給各位Lily, Yale和Diane


珍珠宮

積分: 37877


7#
發表於 10-3-31 12:00 |只看該作者
"然而Yale和Diane的回應,卻打破出軌男人與第三者必屬壞人的刻板形像,而且擢破這封信裡、一個大部份人皆視而不見的邏輯謬誤。"
I don't agree with this. I don't have the image of 第三者必屬壞人的刻板形像.

"三封信中,最令我意外的是Diane的回應──當情人的前妻以受害者姿態出現、於眾親友面前數落她時,Diane並無畏縮與迴避,她的回信落落大方."

I don't agree with this, I don't see Lily has said anything that is 數落Diane. I still don't think Diane 的回信落落大方. Her words in her reply is full of judgement and blame on Lily for everything. Which Lily has never judge Diana in her letter. She just talk about how she felt and hurt.
May be when her words is translated to Chinese, people would not think the same about Diane's words as I do when I am reading her letter directly in English.

[ 本帖最後由 858D 於 10-3-31 12:10 編輯 ]


珍珠宮

積分: 37877


8#
發表於 10-3-31 12:06 |只看該作者
Lily's letter:
http://forum.baby-kingdom.com/thread-2986675-1-3.html

Diane's Letter:
http://forum.baby-kingdom.com/thread-2986697-1-3.html

Husband's letter:
http://forum.baby-kingdom.com/thread-2986685-1-3.html

Finally, I got to read Lily's letter to Diane. (I actually read Diane's letter first, than Husband's letter, and Lily's letter last. )
She is good. She neither accuse Diane nor judge Diane at all in the public.
This is plainly communicating that she is hurt and her children are hurt.
However, in return, Diane's reply is very cruel. Full of false accusation to Lily with false statement (statement with half of the truth). Half of the truth statement is worse than all false statement because people would easily overlook and not realize what is wrong. In other words, Diana's reply is like saying that Lily is reaping what she sowed.


Lily's letter give me a totally different image of herself from the image of her from Diana's reply. In Diana's reply, Lily was a irresponsible mother and a vengeance woman. That tells me what a devil's words out of Diana's pen.

May God heal Lily's and her children's ruined heart.

[ 本帖最後由 858D 於 10-3-31 12:59 編輯 ]


珍珠宮

積分: 37877


9#
發表於 10-3-31 12:23 |只看該作者
Diane' reply:

http://forum.baby-kingdom.com/thread-2986697-1-3.html


These points only be general speeking, but should not address to a sensitive, ruined and being betrayed person like Lily, which has shown from Lily's letter.

1) a marriage can only break apart from the inside
I sort of agree, but I would not agree this is the ONLY element for all the cases.


The following points only could be used as a general speaking, but never should be address to a particular person.
As 小三 address to Lily and keep using "YOU", this is judgmental speaking. And really this could be false witness. 作了假見證。抹黑了Lily.
I don't see Lily 作了假見證 nor 抹黑了小三 from Lily's letter. She was just talking about how she felt, not how she felt about Diane. There is the difference between these 2.

As a reader, we need to keep in mind that do not believe in the judgement from 小三 (Diane) to Lily is true.

Lily might just educate her children that the right things to do with marriage problem is to work together to solve it instead of like their Dad, to avoid it and devoice. This action hurt people and is no good. Lily might just address to the result and action, but not to the person. So her children can make right decision when they grow up and learn from their Dad's mistake.

But it has been twisted the interpretation as shown in 小三's statement which has made Lily looks like a vengeance woman. These are not good statements at all. I mean, it needs more wrapping and better way to say it.

2) a mother's first and foremost priority is to protect her children from any emotional damage, rather than using them as bargaining chips with a spouse
This is an accusation to Lily without credential to judge. Only God knows if Lily used her children to bargain with her spouse or not. That 抹黑了Lily's image.

3) why did you spend so much time and energy trying to force someone who does not care about you to stay with you?
Again, this is accusation from Diane to Lily without qulification. Only God knows if Lily has spended so much time and energy trying to forcie someone or not.

4) you can lose a job, you can lose a spouse, but you should never lose yourself.

This is not ture: I do not see Lily lose herself at all. From Lily's letter, She is very logical, knowing that she have to move on.

5) do not vent your negative feelings on your children

That is not ture. I do not see Lily vent her negative feelings on her children from Lily's letter.

[ 本帖最後由 858D 於 10-3-31 12:52 編輯 ]


侯爵府

積分: 22409

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10#
發表於 10-3-31 12:35 |只看該作者


原帖由 858D 於 10-3-31 12:23 發表
Diane' reply:

http://forum.baby-kingdom.com/thread-2986697-1-3.html


These points only be general speeking, but should not address to a sensitive, ruined and being betrayed person like Lily, which ...


珍珠宮

積分: 37877


11#
發表於 10-3-31 12:48 |只看該作者
"她的控訴,有一個思考上的盲點。"
1. I don't read anything out of Lily's letter is about 控訴 Diane at all. I think this is an unnecessary assumption here.

"Lily有恃無恐地公開自己婚姻的失敗,並在眾目睽睽下對Diane作出種種質問,是什麼原因?"
2. Again, 有恃無恐 is an unnecessary assumption here.

是因為她相信大多數人會認為她對、同情她;她相信大多數人會認同她,因為她是最受傷的一個,而套用中國人慣用的邏輯,受害人通常是較正確的,她可輕易對號入座。

3. We are not Lily, we cannot be sure what is the reason for her to sent out the letter. So we cannot be sure "因為她相信....."

"值得留意的是,她把婚姻的痛苦和不幸,直接和前夫的情人掛鈎,而質問的對像,不是前夫,是這位情人──不管有意或無意,她明白在失去丈夫的妻子和第三者之間,前者佔領了較高的道德優勢。她利用了這絕對優勢。"

4. How could we know Lily did not 質問前夫? May be she did. Why we allow ourself assume something that could be happened either way and allow ourself anchor our thoughts that cause accusation to a person, Lily here.

"然而,她承受了多大的痛苦,就等於第三者有多罪大惡極嗎?兩個人之間出現裂痕,首先應作深刻反省的,是雙方,不是別人。"

5. "第三者有多罪大惡極嗎?" This is not Lily's word. And as a reader, I never think about 第三者, Diane here, is 罪大惡極. Why we should allow our mind to unfairly put negative description, or liable a person?


大宅

積分: 1422


12#
發表於 10-3-31 13:15 |只看該作者
Diane is a very good writer. In order to make her evil event looks less harmful and more reasonable, she used her writing skills to redirect ppl's focus from her wicked act to accusing the wife for not moving on and stand in their way, also leverage the children's emotions to attack their TRUE LOVE. Well, the kids are 8 and 9, they already able to understand what is going on. So, how reasonable she is?

She kept saying how much the man doesn't love his wife and how much does he want to dump her.
In my opinion, she's not in the position to judge the relationship between the couple. This is not fair and stupid to do so. No matter a marriage is having problems or not, an affair is absolutely wrong and irresponsible. Even a 10 years old kid can easily make a judegment. If the man doesn't love his wife anymore (vice verse), just leave and then have a new relationship, no one will say anything about it. To have an affair outside his marriage (whether it's broken or not) is all about fulfilling his own selfishness and insecurity. He has to wait until his new relationship mature enough to leave his family, then what do you think he is? Coward!

This Diane is a wicked mean person without compassion, will do anything to get what she wants. She told the wife for not losing herself? She took her soul from her like a devil!

[ 本帖最後由 Pris 於 10-3-31 13:57 編輯 ]


珍珠宮

積分: 37877


13#
發表於 10-3-31 13:19 |只看該作者
1. "對Lily來說,丈夫既然已不愛自己了,放手並非壞事。最差的情況是不情不願地接受一切,並以怨恨面對未來。"
From Lily's letter, I don't see any sign that Lily will 以怨恨面對未來. In fact, she wish Diane well. And she will move on before her husband and Diane to ask her move on in reply.

2. Diane並非勝利者。她好像得到了那個男人,但對方的孩子永遠不會原諒她,她能好過嗎?Lily可以把她的痛苦公諸於世,理直氣壯地爭取支持,但Diane的苦,卻只能自己默然承受。

There is no winner or loser in this manner. I can see when Lily told Diane that she is the winner. Lily could mean winner her husband's heart over her.

3.
Yale又如何?只要前妻一天不原諒他,他一天有愧於她。一段婚姻終結、失去寶貴家庭,他也是受害人,可惜大家只會記得他是個不忠的人。

Well, from Yale's letter, I do not see Yale has ever asked Lily's forgiveness, not even ask for forgiveness on not being able to sort out solution to their relationship problem and not able to keep his marriage promise regardless of Diane came to his life or not. If he did not ask for forgiveness, how Lily forgive him. Lily will need to forget him in order to forgive.
Again, we cannot speak for Yale because we are not in his shoes.


水晶宮

積分: 57770


14#
發表於 10-3-31 13:55 |只看該作者
aloha_halohalo:

多謝轉載了那麼精彩的評論分析。

這事件引起各方的迴響和反應也頗熱烈;對三位當事人信件內容的回應、以及對那些回應的回應,都各有各說法,各有其因由以至各有其道理,我認為沒有絕對的對與錯。

而有一點我認為是事件源頭起因的,就是如轉載中所述:"在沒有處理好和前妻的藕斷絲連前,把另一個女人牽扯進去" ... 我想說,這正是很多原本婚姻出現問題,未搞妥卻又加入婚外情,最後令情況變得複雜化的情形。

"不忠" 而引至離婚往住較 "純粹婚姻不合" 而離婚帶來更大更深及更難磨滅的痛苦、內疚、傷害 ... etc。負責任的配偶應解決了一段感情,完結了,才開始另一段;而那些第三者,如果在別人仍未回復單身時就介入別人的婚姻,簡直是把自己放在一個受千夫所指的位置,無論對方的婚姻多麼有問題,正如轉載中所述:"不一定需要為別人失敗的婚姻負全責,可惜在道德上,卻揹負著最難洗脫的污名",而且,亦要承受及面對難以想像的痛苦、委屈和壓力,是自己找來傷害自己的不智行為。


侯爵府

積分: 22409

2025勳章 2025勳章蛇年勳章 2024年龍年勳章 2018復活節勳章 開心吸收勳章 好媽媽勳章 醒目開學勳章 畀面勳章


15#
發表於 10-3-31 14:09 |只看該作者



原帖由 全為愛 於 10-3-31 13:55 發表
aloha_halohalo:

多謝轉載了那麼精彩的評論分析。

這事件引起各方的迴響和反應也頗熱烈;對三位當事人信件內容的回應、以及對那些回應的回應,都各有各說法,各有其因由以至各有其道理,我認為沒有絕對的對與錯。

而有一點 ...


翡翠宮

積分: 85153


16#
發表於 10-3-31 16:35 |只看該作者
我本來無乜留意呢單野,係睇呢個topic先知~~~

但我睇完之後,我仍然對個d狐狸精同不忠的男人好反感,不論佢地有幾多的理由黎支持自己,但我會覺得呢d都只係佢地的藉口,好似想將自己做的錯事合理化咁~~~

既然,個男人話13年的婚姻係5年前已經無左,咁請問點解5年前佢唔選擇離婚呢???點解要等有第2個女人出現的時候先提出離婚呢???

咁係呢5年裏面,佢地係點相處架呢???
佢究竟有無嚐試過去挽救呢段婚姻先???點解知道出現左問題唔去解決,而係去揾第2個女人呢???
個女人知道個男人有老婆仔女,都仲叉隻腳埋去就點講都唔啱,難度當個男人同老婆離婚再娶佢,8年後佢又同呢個女人發生一d問題,佢又出去揾第2個,然後就乜都賴哂個老婆???

我個人覺得呢對狗男女好厚顏無恥,好似將婚外情講到好合理咁,男既唔認錯,女既唔知醜:;pppp:

如果佢地無錯,唔通佢老婆錯哂???搞到咁的田地佢老婆想架咩???

[ 本帖最後由 小manman 於 10-3-31 18:17 編輯 ]


大宅

積分: 3197

好媽媽勳章


17#
發表於 10-3-31 18:02 |只看該作者
原帖由 aloha_halohalo 於 10-3-31 11:24 發表
3.相信Diane能如此不卑不亢地在Lily的朋友面前作出回應,關鍵之一是她愛的男人站在她那邊。他在不足一小時裡回覆了前妻的電郵,並說:

Diane had done nothing wrong for her part! I am firmly standing by and behind Dia ...



"在沒有處理好和前妻的藕斷絲連前,把另一個女人牽扯進去" ...

冇錯,既然講到冇感情, 何不一早離婚, 未處理好同前妻關系就搞第二個女人, 唔通咁都算系男人來?


複式洋房

積分: 447


18#
發表於 10-3-31 22:02 |只看該作者
現代人越來越喜歡找籍口來掩飾自己的錯誤,將所有事情合理化!(自己以為合理化)
沒有良心的、沒有道德的,都要自處啊!若非如此地將所有事情都美其名目,他們如何面對自己呢?面對不負責任,厚顏無恥的自己呢?
身份地位越高、越有知識的人更懂得此技倆!或許,你會覺得很可怕,但人性就是這麼可怕啊!
最慘的是苦了孩子!


複式洋房

積分: 272


19#
發表於 10-4-1 01:16 |只看該作者
其實大家都可能有錯, 而且感情既野, 無話邊個岩, 邊個唔岩, 始終都係佢地3個大人既問題, 最緊要既係佢地3個既以後點樣做, 都要唔好傷害小朋友為本....


大宅

積分: 1368


20#
發表於 10-4-1 02:22 |只看該作者
唔認錯跟本係好多人既天性(係好多人 唔係所有) 做第3者既一定係錯 就算人地婚姻破裂都好 唔應該加入 本來你唔加入既話 佢地2夫婦 可能係破裂 但你唔出現 佢地仲可以有補救既機會 如果真係補救唔到 一定要離婚 咁何不等到佢地真係離左婚攪清楚哂先開始呢... 舉個例 有隻杯 隻杯本身就裂左 但仲用得既 咁你就可以理直氣壯走去打爛隻杯嗎 隻杯本身唔係你果喎?

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